The Artwork of Peaceable Divorce

The Divorced Advocate Podcast – Episode with Joe Dillon

Jude: Hey and welcome to The Divorced Dadvocate divorce help for dads the place we assist dads create a wholesome and fewer traumatic divorce. My identify is Jude Sandoval and I’m your host. I created this podcast and The Divorced Advocate neighborhood on account of my very own excessive battle divorce and since you as a dad deserve all of the sources essential to thrive by this difficult time. I encourage you to take a look at our web site at TheDivorcedAdvocate.com the place there are sources that correspond to this episode in addition to free entry to our membership neighborhood the place you’ll discover stay conferences, free workshops and programs, non-public dialogue teams and extra. And now on to this week’s episode.

Hey and welcome to the present. Thanks a lot for listening right now. We’ve received an essential subject that I spotted that I’ve uncared for to do any type of episode or actually training or sharing on within the 5 years that we’ve been recording this podcast. My visitor right now reached out to me and it clicked in my head and it was a pure match to get collectively and chat with him.

Earlier than I introduce him, I wish to remind you to go to TheDivorcedDadvocate.com and take a look at all of the sources that now we have there so as to get the assistance that you simply deserve and wish. We’ve received all the pieces from free to paid sources wherever you’re at in your divorce whether or not you’re simply considering or publish divorce. We’ve received one thing that may enable you on the market so test it out at TheDivorcedDadvocate.com.

My visitor right now is a trailblazer in divorce mediation. He’s been serving to {couples} finish their marriages with dignity and monetary readability for over 17 years. As co-founder of Equitable Mediation Companies, he brings an MBA in finance and superior coaching from Harvard, MIT, and Northwestern to information {couples} towards honest lasting agreements that defend each emotional well-being and monetary stability. He launched digital divorce mediation in 2011, practically a decade earlier than it grew to become the norm through the pandemic. The outcomes communicate for themselves – Equitable Mediation Companies has a 98% case decision fee, which is exceptional and is way above the trade common of 70%. Please assist me in welcoming Joe Dillon.

Joe: Thanks for having me Jude, very excited to be right here.

Jude: Joe, thanks for reaching out. Like I discussed, I’ve been remiss in probably not diving into this. I believe we’ve talked about positives of mediation and discovering attorneys and all the pieces else, however we haven’t actually dove into mediation and the positives and the negatives and the way you get a 98% case decision. I believe I used to be telling you proper earlier than we began recording I’ve been in mediation six or seven occasions and I’m over six or seven, so I’m actually curious to know the way you bought to that too.

However earlier than we leap into a few of that, simply share just a little bit about for 17 years now why you retain displaying as much as arguing {couples} each single day and serving to them to determine what they’ve received occurring.

Joe: Yeah, that’s an excellent query. So just a little bit about me – my mother and father litigated their divorce. You recognize, a therapist would in all probability have a discipline day with me as a result of they’re like “Properly dude, that is completely why you do that, proper?” However you realize they litigated this again within the ’80s and this was earlier than actually mediation was a factor.

So I began fascinated by it – they fought for years, they spent a lot cash, after which actually the final time I noticed my father I used to be 15 years previous. I used to be sitting behind a courtroom, within the hallway my mother and father have been nonetheless yelling at one another within the hallway. My dad walked out of the courtroom and that was actually the final time I noticed him or spoke to him once more. Then about 5 years in the past I received a letter saying he had died, and in order that was it.

If you take a look at that, when you concentrate on that as dads, you realize dads are essential function fashions and so they’re essential gamers in children’ lives. To not have a dad in my life – my mother after all did an excellent job, did the most effective she may – however there’s roles that dads play which might be actually critically essential. I simply want that they might have put the attorneys apart, talked to one another as folks straight as a result of I used to be sitting proper there by the way in which, and mentioned “You recognize what do now we have to do this’s in the most effective curiosity of this child right here?” As a result of I’m an solely youngster.

So each time after I get, as you mentioned, I get into the room and I get into the area, I believe to myself I wish to assist {couples} keep away from what occurred to me. I would like them – I say “Look, you aren’t going to be husband and spouse anymore, however you’re all the time going to be mother and pa and that may be a function that won’t change.” So I believe that’s what retains me displaying up each single day realizing that there are households on the market who’re nonetheless on the birthday events collectively, nonetheless sitting at one another’s graduations, may be on the marriage ceremony collectively. I didn’t have any of that, so you realize I really feel like I actually missed out and in order that’s actually the deep reply. I hope that’s not too deep for the viewers.

Jude: Yeah, no, properly I believe that provides some credibility as properly to that. It’s clearly unhappy that that’s what has occurred, however I believe that lots of the dads which might be listening can relate to a few of that. One of many issues I’ve seen in doing this work for thus lengthy now could be that some of these items is generational. So my mother and father have been divorced, my mother and father’ mother and father have been divorced as properly, and it appears to be a factor that will get carried on except there’s a mindset such as you simply talked about which is “Hey, we have to reframe this.” We’d not be collectively however we’re going to be mother and father and we should be taking a look at this from a distinct perspective.

Which, if any person is wholesome and is in a wholesome mindset, doesn’t have psychological emotional challenges occurring or one thing else, then mediation in all probability is one thing that’s optimistic. So share with us then why mediation is optimistic and perhaps some misconceptions round mediation and going to mediation.

Joe: Yeah, so I believe the factor that for me with mediation is that take into consideration when you have got a lawyer – two sides have a lawyer and the attorneys are speaking and it’s this kind of faceless interplay. You’re not seeing that you simply’re hurting the opposite particular person. Supposedly this was an individual that you simply in some unspecified time in the future in your life pledged your timeless like to, so even at a naked minimal you’d wish to deal with this particular person like a human.

Due to the adversarial nature of the authorized system, the lawyer is employed to win for his or her shopper and so they don’t care who they harm on the opposite aspect so long as I win and I get the most effective settlement. That’s taking place from either side. Mediation removes that and places the 2 folks nose to nose, and I believe that’s actually what the secret’s – it’s kind of like, I’ll say this to you, we each have web sites and in case you had say a commenting part that was unmoderated in your web site, it’s actual simple for any person who doesn’t must register to return in and make some snarky remark after which simply ship and stroll away. But when I had to have a look at you and provide you with my identify, my deal with, my cellphone quantity, a photograph of myself, it could be loads tougher for me to do this.

Mediation’s the identical manner. If I’m sitting throughout from you, it’s loads tougher to yell, to be imply, to name names, and fairly frankly to attempt to pull one over on the opposite particular person. In case you’re looking at any person and the opposite particular person seems at you and goes “Come on, actually? Actually?” you may’t in good religion – such as you mentioned you need to have the psychological acuity after all – however you may’t in good religion say “Oh yeah, completely that’s true.” You’re like “Yeah, you’re proper, I’m type of joking, you realize?”

So it takes numerous the air out of the balloon, numerous the feelings, and by doing that negotiation straight you may clear up numerous misconceptions, get folks to deal with one another like people, and I actually suppose that takes the temperature down and it’s actually to me the important thing to the entire course of.

Jude: So do you require {couples} to sit down in the identical room whereas they’re mediating? Now you do it nearly, and I suppose alongside that very same idea have they got to be nose to nose with one another? As a result of I’ve been in mediation each methods.

Joe: Yeah, so I’m all the time of the thoughts – what you’re referring to, there’s two sorts of mediation. The type of mediation I do, everyone’s within the room quote unquote. Now in case you’re on one Zoom and the opposite particular person’s on a distinct Zoom, certain no downside, we’re every in our personal separate video feeds, however I’m all the time working one-on-two.

There are some mediators who work in a trend that’s generally known as shuttle mediation just like the mediator shuttles forwards and backwards between the rooms. I discover that type of breeds distrust as a result of the one get together sitting there now simply ready – what are you pondering? What’s that mediator saying that my husband or my spouse? In case you’re all within the room, like take into consideration whenever you have been just a little child, how rumors received began and that recreation of phone or no matter it’s. In case you’re all collectively you may clear up that rumor actual fast, but when any person goes into a distinct room, says one thing, they arrive again – whilst a practitioner, let’s simply be fairly trustworthy, it is a onerous sufficient job with out me having to recollect what one particular person mentioned, informed me, what I can’t inform the opposite particular person. I’m not going to have the ability to do this.

So that you get everyone in the identical room, it makes the dialog go loads higher, clarifies any points, and it actually does like I mentioned cut back that battle.

Jude: Okay, so is that – do you are feeling like that is without doubt one of the explanation why you might need a a lot larger success fee? As a result of I believe in all probability nearly all of occasions, and this was by request of my ex, we have been in separate rooms and even after we did digital mediation we have been in separate rooms so she would by no means ever have to have a look at me, by no means must be straight speaking with me. Is that – do you are feeling like that is without doubt one of the causes that you’ve got such a excessive success fee?

Joe: I believe so. I believe having folks one-on-one, even when they’re say for instance taking the Zoom name from a separate room – you realize there’s clearly energy dynamics in relationships, so some individuals are snug sitting subsequent to one another, some folks aren’t, and so they need to have the ability to communicate up. So if meaning you’re within the bed room and also you’re within the visitor room or no matter it’s on Zoom, advantageous.

However I do suppose that results in that as a result of it does actually like I mentioned take the temperature down, clarifies numerous points, and likewise let’s be trustworthy – this isn’t probably the most enjoyable somebody has ever had, getting a divorce. Do you actually need this course of to pull on for years and years? No, you wish to transfer by the method in a structured and arranged trend. You don’t wish to sound like “Oh it is a enterprise transaction and we’re going to maneuver you thru,” however you don’t need it to pull like my mother and father – it was like three years. It’s like what are you doing? Who’s benefiting from this? Legal professionals. That’s who’s benefiting from this. Are you getting on together with your life? No. Am I getting on with my life as your youngster? No.

So once more that additionally expedites the dialog, it will get folks to maneuver by the method sooner, come to a conclusion, and I say this man to man right here – I’m half Irish, half Italian, so I’m very stoic. You recognize, don’t fear about it, suppress your emotions – that’s how I used to be raised. Numerous guys don’t understand that there’s going to be this emotional avalanche on the finish that they should let occur and they should welcome it, and the earlier they get there the earlier they will have the breakdown, rebuild, and transfer ahead. That’s actually what my objective is to attempt to assist them do this as properly.

Jude: Properly so that you carry up a superb level – there are numerous feelings that come up on this course of. Funds might be one of many largest ones that folks get clearly wrapped across the axle on. How do you handle that whenever you’re within the course of, when these feelings begin to get whether or not they get heated or whether or not they get unhappy or fearful? I believe in all probability in case you actually wish to do a psychoanalysis of it, which we’re not going to do right now, but it surely comes right down to concern on either side – concern I’m not going to have sufficient, concern I’m not going to have the ability to present, no matter it’s. However how do you handle that?

Joe: Yeah, in order you realize I’ve an MBA in finance and so I carry this monetary perspective to it since you’re completely proper. Take into consideration the matters in a divorce – parenting, youngster help, alimony, property division. Three of the 4 are monetary, and by the way in which in many of the states we follow within the parenting plan is an enter into the calculation of kid help, so I’ll say three and a half.

Going again to what we have been speaking about earlier than about trying somebody within the eye and with the ability to say to them one thing critical and have them take you significantly, what I love to do is I’ve this course of that I’ve developed. So I first begin folks out by making ready these budgets – these are funds workbooks of my very own design. We do a joint funds and that exhibits me what your marital way of life seems like. What that does is it says “Look guys, are you dwelling at your means, under your means, or past your means?” As a result of guess what? Quickly as you separate households, life’s going to get dearer, and in case you have been going into bank card debt when you’re dwelling collectively, there’s no extra cash hiding round for further alimony or youngster help. So we degree that enjoying discipline first.

Then we get the aside budgets and we are saying “Look, right here’s your lives comparatively publish divorce. Is it honest that this particular person’s sleeping on his pal’s sofa within the basement whereas this particular person remains to be staying in the home? Take a look at the numbers – this particular person’s spending I don’t know $7,000 a month, this one’s making an attempt to spend $1,500. Is that actually honest? Is that good in your children? Do your children wish to go to dad within the pal’s basement?”

So you have got that first dialog to degree set to say “Look, that is what we’ve received financially. There’s no lies right here, right here all of it is.” In order that’s the very first thing that we do.

From there, the second factor that occurs is we do a stability sheet and we put all of the belongings and liabilities out on the desk as a result of what I discovered is lots of people like to speak about stuff piecemeal and what they do is that they decide one factor like the home or the automotive or the 401k or no matter and so they simply go after it. I’m like “Guys, this is sort of a large – you bought to have a look at the entire image.”

After we get all of it out on the desk it’s like “Properly right here’s all of the statements” – as a result of I requested him to offer me copies of the statements – “right here’s a spreadsheet with all of your belongings and liabilities. There isn’t a cash hiding in a checking account, right here’s all of the credit score stories, right here’s all of the analysis we did on all of your open accounts.” What you see is I’m making an attempt to do is I’m eradicating the feelings earlier than we even make selections. So I prefer to say do the invention earlier than the deciding.

As guys, I’m Mr. Responsible of this – I’m a solutions-oriented man, I wish to repair the issue instantly, I am going proper into options mode. What you should do is you should go into analysis, step again, lay all of it out, then you may have the dialog in order that’s how we method it – take these feelings out so the conversations may be extra productive.

Jude: Properly so these are two issues already that I can inform that at the very least in my expertise has not occurred – being nose to nose as a result of that does humanize it and does make it completely different, after which what you’re speaking about with that preparation upfront and having full monetary image, realizing all the pieces that’s occurring. I believe you mentioned pulling credit score stories too so as to see what credit score – that’s one thing that I’ve by no means heard of and I believe that’s a superb concept as a result of then that places to relaxation any distrust or something or any capacity to lie about something interval in case you’ve received that and also you’re in a position to commerce that and take a look at that and know “Hey, that is what it’s, there’s no cash right here, that is what we’re coping with.”

So it sounds such as you do much more upfront preparation with the {couples} earlier than scheduling and having them present up in order that there’s extra occurring, which I believe is sensible truthfully.

So how do you get – one of many issues that I run into probably the most is when one get together simply doesn’t have a sensible expectation after they’re coming into mediation. And it occurs on a regular basis, you realize, and it doesn’t actually matter who it’s, whether or not it’s the person or the lady. However one get together appears to simply not have a sensible expectation usually occasions. How do you progress previous that then when any person exhibits up – even when you have the entire documentation and the credit score stories and your spreadsheet developed in your MBA program and all the pieces else – after which any person had confirmed up pondering, as a result of most of us don’t examine the statutes such as you talked about, the kid help goes to be tied to the variety of nights that you’ve got in a parenting plan. So one particular person has not carried out the work, doesn’t know the statutes, doesn’t perceive, perhaps had this false impression that their life goes to be the identical publish divorce if not higher publish divorce, they’re going to keep up the precisely the identical way of life with two households now, which is senseless however once more we’re not pondering logically usually occasions by this course of. How do you mitigate that when there’s one individual that simply is totally unrealistic?

Joe: Yeah, nice query and that does occur ceaselessly. So the way in which I deal with it, there’s two elements to that. The primary we’ve already talked about are these budgets. So what we do is after we do the joint funds, let’s simply use some foolish spherical numbers – let’s say a pair dwelling collectively spends $5,000 a month on their dwelling bills, their home and their automotive and their groceries and no matter. Then after we take their aside budgets and we evaluation them and we add them collectively, one particular person is spending $4,000 and the opposite one’s spending $3,500.

So I say “Okay of us, $5,000 collectively, $7,500 aside. $2,500 is the price to divorce” – that’s the phrase I exploit. “In order that’s what it’s going to price you guys each month to be divorced. So $2,500 occasions 12” – no matter that math is, $30,000. “Hey, you probably did some math! Okay guys, you’re an MBA. Let me ask you guys a query – do you have got $30,000 mendacity round proper now? Do you place $30,000 a yr away within the financial institution?” And most of the people will say no. I mentioned “Okay, the place’s that coming from?” So we first set up that there’s going to be a problem.

Then the second factor we do – and it is a good thing in your listeners to recollect, that is type of a negotiation method – is you say “Right here’s an excellent query.” So that is what I would like everyone to listen to: “Assist me perceive.” If you say “You do that, you don’t get it,” you realize the particular person’s taking that as an assault and naturally they’re gonna solely entrench of their place.

“Okay, you need $5,000 a month in alimony. Okay, assist me perceive how I pays that to you. If I can do it, I’m actually keen to hear.” And now the particular person as an alternative of you proving their level, they must show their very own level. What I’ve seen is lots of people – what it does is it paints them right into a nook to actuality examine themselves. Then unexpectedly they go “Properly yeah, you solely carry residence $4,500 a month, I suppose I’m not getting $5,000 in alimony.” And the opposite particular person goes “Proper.” There’s like a second – you’re all the time as a mediator in search of these moments the place any person has just a little little bit of empathy for the opposite particular person.

In order that’s how we do it and I say “Hey hear, I’m all ears, I’m impartial, I don’t have a horse on this race, however assist me perceive how that’s attainable.” After which lots of people after they begin speaking it by and making an attempt to elucidate it and making an attempt to determine it out, they often can’t.

Even when they are saying “I don’t care, that’s what I would like,” then the third possibility, which is what I favor to not get to, is you say “Okay, let’s do this. Let’s check out what it could be like if I pay you $5,000 a month. Right here’s my funds. Check out my funds. Do you agree my funds is right? Yeah, I spend $4,000 a month. Yeah, I carry residence $5,000 a month. Yeah, so how do I pay my payments?” After which once more you’re making an attempt to get the opposite particular person to say “You recognize what, that doesn’t make sense.”

As a result of in case you inform them, of their head it is sensible, however you do all the pieces you may to identical to we have been speaking about – that discovery, put all the pieces out on the desk and allow them to come to that conclusion. As a result of I imagine in my coronary heart of hearts that most individuals are rational actors. Most individuals are affordable, it’s the circumstances that wind you up. Anyone cuts you off in visitors – I’m not a maniac, but when any person cuts me off immediately I’m. Identical factor in these conditions.

So in these examples what you’re all the time making an attempt to do is “Certain, I’m listening, I’m keen because the recipient of that request, I’m keen to offer it a shot. Assist me perceive how that’s attainable, let’s discuss it,” and then you definitely keep quiet and also you let the opposite particular person attempt to clarify themselves. That’s the way you do it. Make sense?

Jude: Yeah, no that’s terrific and I like that “assist me perceive” is the phrase. And if anyone’s listening, I believe that may be a nice query to simply use by this entire course of. They might use that with their soon-to-be ex, they might use that with their attorneys, they will use that with anyone that if they only don’t perceive, like “Lay it out for me, inform me what I’m speculated to do.”

As a result of such as you mentioned, what you simply described – as guys naturally wish to downside resolve and we wish to determine this out, and I’ve labored with sufficient guys and also you in all probability have too, like we in all probability have come to this mediation with a plan A, B, C, and D in most of our minds of like what we are able to do, what we are able to’t do, what we’d love to do, all these completely different eventualities that we are able to attempt to work out. I let you know I’ve coached some guys that actually present up with the spreadsheets of these three, 4, 5 completely different eventualities of the way you’re gonna undergo it, which I’ve respect for and I do respect that.

However that’s an excellent query – “So I’ve received these 5 choices, so assist me perceive which one’s going to be just right for you” or regardless of the state of affairs is. I like that loads.

So I’m curious although as a result of there’s a phase of the inhabitants, and sadly guys that tune into this present and are available to the neighborhood take care of folks that have some vital psychological emotional points, perhaps persona issues – that’s perhaps 5 to 10% of your complete inhabitants on the market. How do you’re employed by one thing like that and the way do you get to a 98% success fee in case you’re working with of us that some would possibly simply have a distinct actuality? As a result of persona dysfunction is basically any person has a distinct actuality than yours, completely different actuality of the world. I’m not a scientific psychologist or something, that’s simply type of usually, and also you’ve carried out sufficient of this to know they only don’t have the fact of what’s occurring, they’ve a distinct actuality of what’s occurring.

How do you’re employed by a few of that stuff and what strategies do you have got for any of the blokes that is likely to be coping with any person like this that actually actually wish to attempt to come to some settlement, some amicable method to get by this course of? As a result of what I’ve discovered, and that is in all probability usually on either side, is the blokes that come to our neighborhood that is likely to be coping with any person like this are genuinely dads that wish to determine one thing out that simply received into a wedding that’s simply untenable anymore and so they’re looking for – and mediation can be nice as a result of they know they’re going to economize, it’s going to be simpler on the youngsters, all the explanations that you simply described earlier than – but it surely’s simply any person that they’re caught and this particular person’s caught of their actuality that isn’t the fact.

Joe: Yeah, completely. So the excellent news is lots of people – I believe they overlook actually what occurs, Jude, is that they overlook that there’s steps within the course of. There’s gradations you may take. You don’t have to tug the pin out of the grenade and go proper to courtroom, and mediation is all the time an excellent first step. You’re going to mediate, you’re going to attempt to mediate.

As we have been speaking about earlier than we jumped on right here, numerous states today have necessary mediation anyway, so what I remind folks is you’re going to both see me now otherwise you’re going to see any person like me later. The probabilities are the particular person you’re going to see later goes to be appointed by the courtroom or won’t have the expertise that say somebody like me in non-public mediation has, so your all the time finest wager is to strive mediation first.

Now I’ll let you know that there are individuals who come to us and I wish to be very trustworthy with them, and we’ll have a primary assembly, an preliminary assembly, and I’ll say “You recognize what of us, I don’t suppose mediation is the appropriate factor for you due to,” for instance what you mentioned. Nevertheless, there’s a substitute for pulling the pin out of the grenade and it’s known as collaborative divorce.

How that works is you’re all in the identical room and on this state of affairs it’s you and your legal professional, your partner and their legal professional, after which a related skilled. And once more, you realize, poking enjoyable at ourselves as guys, you realize particularly me – I’m an solely youngster, I’m all the time “I can do it myself, I don’t want any assist,” and we’re all the time type of simply placing on the courageous face.

Properly on this case you have got this room the place there’s the safety of the legal professional, it’s a impartial setting, after which you may herald a psychological well being skilled or a baby psychologist or another certified what we’d name fifth get together who they’re not a mediator, however they’re there to supply that type of help and to have the ability to clarify to the person who maybe won’t be on the identical aircraft as the opposite particular person what’s occurring, the way it’s impacting them, getting them to know how compromise works and what they should do and what’s in the most effective curiosity of the youngsters.

So even in case you can’t mediate, I’m a fan of then saying go to collaborative divorce, get these folks within the room. As a result of you realize, look, I may let you know I’ve a few of my finest buddies are attorneys, and such as you and I we have been simply speaking about, my background is finance. I’m not a psychological well being skilled, you don’t need me as your psychological well being skilled, I’m woefully unqualified, and most of my legal professional buddies will say the identical factor. So they are saying “Look, let’s get any person within the room impartial that either side can decide in order that they will bridge that hole,” and I discover that that helps loads. That’s a key factor.

So in case your listeners are in a state of affairs the place they’re pondering “I don’t know if my partner is ready to have a superb religion negotiation or to know absolutely what’s taking place,” strive collaborative divorce. This manner you every have attorneys, you have got different professionals that may help you, and it avoids you from having to wind up in a courtroom. Extra – not as cost-effective as mediation after all, however far more economical than litigation. In order that’s what I might say.

Jude: Yeah, so have you ever discovered that {couples} that is probably not profitable in mediation do have success in collaborative divorces?

Joe: You recognize, I don’t know for certain solely as a result of typically like I mentioned we’re fortunate, we’ve had – I can depend on one hand the variety of shoppers that haven’t been in a position to come to settlement with us, so I can’t communicate definitively about what occurred. However the shoppers that in all probability we’re unable to assist mustn’t have been mediation shoppers within the first place – they weren’t being truthful upfront and hiding one thing, some belongings or another state of affairs.

However I do suppose they are often if I as an expert needed to make that regard, as a result of what’s good about mediation is you may take what you’ve carried out and numerous occasions in my expertise it’s often a handful of points, one or two points which might be the sticking level. So that you don’t want to begin once more, take what you’ve carried out in mediation, carry it to a collaborative course of, say “Look, we agree on these 95 issues, we’d like assist with these 5,” after which at the very least you’re not ranging from scratch. I believe that’s how you’d succeed.

Now if any person goes into mediation and says “That is ridiculous, I don’t conform to any of this, I’m getting a lawyer and I’m going to burn this factor to the bottom,” yeah then I don’t know what’s going to occur. However in case you get the individuals who simply have that one or two sticking level that they only can’t get previous and for some cause we are able to’t get them previous it, then that’s what I might say – you go to collaborative, you employ that course of to simply end the remainder of it, and then you definitely’re in your manner.

Jude: Bought it. Yeah, I requested as a result of it appears to me, and that is simply anecdotal and subjective, that the {couples} that haven’t been profitable in mediation are much less – have much less of a possibility or are much less ready to achieve success in collaborative divorce as a result of collaborative is actually collaborative. In case you’re mediating and also you’re doing mediation within the right spirit of mediation, you’re collaborating, and a part of collaboration is having to return to consensus, you’re having to offer and take, you’re having to resolve every kind of issues that’s collaborative.

In the event that they haven’t been in a position to get it carried out in mediation, I’ve discovered that usually they’re not in a position to get it carried out in a collaborative sort state of affairs. However perhaps it’s simply because collaborative divorce shouldn’t be – has not change into as prevalent as common divorce is but. Properly hopefully that’s beginning to change and there’s perhaps extra folks fascinated by doing it or having some success by it as a result of I really suppose that it’s such as you mentioned, it’s the subsequent step up from mediation if you should carry different folks in, you should have extra – the way in which that I describe the variations, and proper me if I’m improper, is that if any person has an unrealistic expectation round issues, you have got any person that’s there to assist educate them on the method perhaps or the realities of stuff such as you talked about bringing psychological well being professionals in or finance professionals in, actual property professionals, no matter, that may assist them to say “Look, that is what the lay of the land is. These are your choices. You might need one, two, three, 4, 5 choices, however truly realistically it’s going to be one or two. The opposite ones, you may argue it in courtroom, however in all probability 99% – three of these 5 are going to get thrown out and also you’re not going to have any alternative.”

So it appears to be whereas mediation shouldn’t be as – you’re not spending weeks, months, and going by that course of, you’re spending hours and it’s extra inclined to folks which might be going to really simply get one thing carried out.

Joe: Proper, you realize, and also you introduced up an excellent level earlier than – it’s a mindset. There’s a quote and I believe it’s Henry Ford – “In case you suppose you may otherwise you suppose you may’t, you’re proper.” I like that quote as a result of in case you come into mediation going “This isn’t going to work,” properly guess what, it’s not going to work.

However on the finish of the day, in case you say – and you realize this from expertise, I do know this from expertise as a baby – is that whenever you enter the authorized system, all bets are off and also you’re simply placing – you’re rolling these cube. You’re not even rolling them, a stranger is rolling them for you. As an alternative in mediation you management the result.

Now granted, may you have got gotten extra, may you have got paid much less if I litigated? Yeah, perhaps you possibly can. However what’s value it? Is it definitely worth the $50,000, $75,000, $100,000 you spent on a litigated divorce? Is it definitely worth the years of your life that you possibly can have been enjoying catch together with your son or going to bounce recital? You’re going to be in courtrooms. Generally you simply must let it go and you need to simply say “Properly that was horrible, that’s not what I needed, however you realize what, it was value it for my emotional well-being.”

As a result of guess what, we’ve talked loads about funds and all of these issues, however the largest worth somebody pays is an emotional one. Your cash comes and goes. All of us lose jobs, we get jobs, we make unhealthy investments, we spend an excessive amount of on a bar tab or no matter it’s. However on the finish of the day, the one factor you bought left is your emotional peace of thoughts, and that’s priceless.

Jude: Yeah, for certain. So in case you can provide some recommendation to the dads listening so far as what to search for in a mediator, like what sorts of inquiries to ask a mediator? As a result of I discover numerous the blokes will say “Hey yeah, we’re going to strive mediation first, we’re going to discover a non-public mediator first, not a court-appointed mediator,” which I agree with you, I believe that there’s a definite distinction of their skills to get that carried out and to get one thing carried out between a court-appointed mediator and a non-public mediator. You guys must have success – properly you don’t must have success, however yeah you type of do. Your success breeds extra enterprise, which you wish to proceed to feed your loved ones, then you definitely wish to achieve success.

Which you realize, and you realize you’ve received my thoughts going only a ton as a result of like I mentioned I’ve been by it six or seven occasions, have by no means had success. I believe I really feel like a part of that is likely to be simply usually the mediator inhabitants that now we have right here as a result of it’s courtroom ordered and the way good or unhealthy they really are right here in Colorado. But additionally I might contend that this in all probability is true in another states or areas the place they require that – they’re not – they won’t have the extent of ability that somebody such as you or mediators in different areas have, which goes to result in failure.

When that failure occurs – okay so I used to be going to ask you one other query, I’m going to shift just a little bit right here – so when that failure occurs, it – the problem I’ve with doing the mediation with out being ready such as you described is that it begins all the pieces off poorly after all. So in case you get into a nasty mediation and any person’s not practical for no matter cause, it fails, it appears to set issues again versus beginning off on the improper foot.

So truly I can dovetail this into the query I used to be going to ask – so what can the dads search for in a mediator, what sort of questions can they ask the mediator earlier than stepping into the method and deciding on beginning out with the mediation course of?

Joe: Excellent, I’ll provide you with some nice inquiries to ask. So the very first thing I might ask is “Clarify to me your mediation course of.” We’ve been speaking about this loads and having a course of is vital. Think about in case you – I’m an enormous baseball fan – think about in case you simply put 9 guys out on a discipline and mentioned “Play a recreation.” What was the very first thing they might ask? Properly, what are the principles? The place do I am going? The place do I stand? Who does what? You wish to know, you want a framework by which to function with. In order that’s truly what the Colorado Rockies do right here – I simply went to the sport final evening, that’s why they’ve solely received 12 video games this yr.

Jude: Yeah, I’m sorry about that and I’m an enormous Cubs fan so sorry about the entire Chris Bryant factor, so you may blame me for that.

Joe: So you realize, however I might ask “Hey, what’s your course of seem like? Do you even have one?” As a result of as we’ve talked about, in case you don’t have a course of, issues can spiral fairly rapidly. In order that’s query primary.

Quantity two – what’s your case decision fee? You bought to be hitting at the very least 70%, that’s trade common, that’s a C. In case you’re stepping into 80, you’re stepping into 90, that’s strong, that’s good. So what’s your case decision fee?

What’s your coaching seem like? That’s a 3rd query. So what I might say to your listeners, and that is terrifying for an expert like myself, is that if Jude, you determined someday “You recognize what, I talked to that Joe Dillon man, he appeared fairly cool, I’m going to take this 40-hour mediation class on the Vacation Inn this weekend and I’m going to get myself a enterprise card” – that’s actually all you should do to change into a mediator in most states. Forty-hour course. Like wow, that’s simply terrifying.

So what sort of coaching, persevering with training do they proceed to do to remain on prime of tendencies? As a result of as you realize, the legal guidelines change yearly. So what’s their coaching, what does that seem like for them? Do they only take the 40-hour course or do they proceed to take further coaching?

After which I’d additionally discuss to them about their price construction as a result of right here’s one other factor that we do. So we’re fairly distinctive within the sense we provide a flat price and other people can have as many periods as they like inside this time-frame. We name it this mediation roadmap. So in impact what we’re doing is we’re placing our skilled status on the road and saying – this feels like a recreation present nearly in a bizarre manner – I can get your divorce negotiated inside this time period for this worth, and if it goes, then it’s on me if I screw up.

If you’re billing hourly, there’s no incentive for that skilled to resolve your points. I imply that’s the mannequin, that’s okay, I get it, that was once the mannequin, however that’s damaged. I don’t wish to – I’m not an ATM, and so I wish to know the way lengthy is it going to take, how a lot is it going to price, what am I going to get? So we inform folks that proper up entrance and if any person can’t let you know that, in the event that they’re not assured, that claims – look, and that is the place we get to say we are saying between 10 and 14 weeks you possibly can end your entire divorce mediation. Not the courtroom course of since you’re on the mercy of the courts and submitting it and all, however you possibly can get your entire substantive settlement negotiated inside this time interval. Like I can provide you a 98% probability that’s going to occur.

If I mentioned to you “Hey Jude, you play the lottery? I received a 98% shot of profitable, would you play?” After all you’d. And I’m saying to you, I’m even placing it on me saying that in case you want two periods, 4, six, eight, we’re making progress, you’re nonetheless paying the identical worth, that’s on me. I’m keen to do this.

So I believe if that mixture of your coaching, your course of, your price construction, your skilled societies that you simply belong to, your engagement – all of these issues type of come into play. And you realize I can let you know from expertise, numerous occasions folks – one factor I might not concern myself with are on-line critiques as a result of in a divorce, to begin with, who’s going out publicly and saying “That was superior! That’s the most effective divorce ever! I like that man Joe Dillon, he’s nice!” You recognize, they’re not doing that. And those which might be are mad, they’re indignant about one thing. We now have like three critiques someplace in Google I believe.

However we do ask folks to fill out an nameless survey after they’re carried out with us and we pull quotes from it. So another person must also be capable of say “Look, I can’t provide you with referrals or references” – “Hey Jude, I received your cellphone quantity from my mediator, can I discuss to you about your divorce?” You’d be like “What?” They need to be capable of at the very least say “Look, right here’s a smattering of suggestions we’ve gotten and listed here are the issues that folks point out.” And also you’ll discover patterns. So I believe that’s actually what I might say – these questions and to keep away from on-line critiques as a result of actually they’re simply actually not correct today in the case of this subject. So I hope that helps.

Jude: Okay, what about folks which might be in states or areas the place there’s courtroom order mediation? Would a query – would a query like what proportion of your small business is court-appointed, what proportion of your small business is legal professional referred, and what number of your small business is non-public – would that be a superb query to ask too? As a result of I received to let you know Joe, like you realize the phrase “you don’t know what you don’t know” – I really feel like that. And speaking to you now in simply this 45 minutes that we’ve spent collectively, that you simply’ve raised an entire bunch of latest questions however issues that would assist everyone on the whole in the event that they knew this, however the guys which might be listening to have some extra success upfront with a mediator.

As a result of what you’ve described has not ever been an expertise that I’ve had within the six or seven occasions. I hear that. I’ve actually had mediators after the shuttle forwards and backwards, after one room in a half hour say “We’re in all probability not going to get something carried out right now. Nice, thanks.” And then you definitely paid your minimal and albeit I used to be simply completely happy that you simply paid your minimal two hours and I wasn’t going to pay one other six hours. And even when they solely labored a half hour, I used to be completely happy that I minimize my losses.

So however that’s the expertise that I’ve had, and till – except I’ve had an expertise that was higher than that, which is what you’ve been describing to me, I didn’t know – I don’t know anyone. I believe numerous us don’t know any higher, and I believe I actually really feel whereas mediation is a good concept, it’s identical to having a nasty plumber – if they might simply make issues worse in the event that they present up and so they’re crappy. So in case you’re making an attempt to have good intentions and stepping into mediation after which you have got a horrible expertise, it simply units issues again like I mentioned.

So yeah, so I believe one other query along with what’s your course of – I believe that’s an excellent query – what’s your case decision fee – I might love, I’m going to begin asking that on a regular basis now as a result of I don’t know that any of them hold that. I’ve not seen that. I might suppose that each mediator would wish to have that as a benchmark like in all of their promoting – 90%, 98% – except they’re not profitable, except they’re doing the shuttle forwards and backwards and “I’m carried out in a half hour, it’s simply not going to work out right now” state of affairs.

Joe: Alongside these strains to make a remark about that’s my spouse Cheryl, she’s a divorce coach and he or she’s my accomplice on this, so she helps a few of our shoppers as properly. And you realize, in case your case decision fee isn’t excessive, you’re within the improper line of labor as a result of the underside line is I’m a divorce mediator on my enterprise card, however the fact of the matter is I’m an issue solver. And if I’m not keen to love get within the area and say “Guys, we received to determine this out” and actually care about it – you actually need to care about this. It’s such as you have been saying to me initially of the present – why do you retain doing this? It’s as a result of I truly give a rattling about it as a result of I’ve seen the opposite aspect of the coin.

I can’t let you know what to do, however man, you simply don’t need what occurred to me. You simply don’t need the choice. Belief me on this. Simply grasp with me, it’s going to be onerous, however we are able to do that. And I’ve come residence after a day and he or she’s like “How are you doing?” I’m like “I simply received to sit down quietly downstairs and pet the canine.” You recognize, it takes loads out of you, however you need to care, and I believe that’s loads too.

One other query I might have your of us ask is “Is that this your full-time career?” That’s one other good query. Do you mediate full-time? As a result of I don’t know, you realize, I don’t know if I discussed this – so after I was dwelling in Chicago and I used to be type of educating at Northwestern College, I used to be like an assistant to the individuals who have been educating the mediation lessons, and numerous the individuals who got here in there have been psychological well being professionals, marriage counselors, and so they thought “Properly, you realize, I’m already seeing {couples} in bother so I’ll change into a divorce mediator as properly.”

It’s such as you simply mentioned – think about if the plumber confirmed up at your own home and gave you a enterprise card and mentioned “Hey, by the way in which, along with plumbing, I additionally restore carburetors and I additionally paint bedrooms and I additionally do needlepoint.” You’d be like “Are you actually certified as a plumber?” So that you in all probability wish to discover out – does this particular person follow some type of battle decision full-time? As a result of it is a ability. Mediation is a ability and it must be honed and sharpened and continued, and in order that’s one other good query.

Jude: Yeah, yeah, I believe that’s an excellent query. Solely problem is that in the event that they get all their enterprise – like they’re not within the improper enterprise in the event that they’re getting automated enterprise. In the event that they’re getting automated enterprise from the courtroom after which they’re mailing it in, that’s the place you bought to ask “Properly, what proportion of your small business, how a lot enterprise?” And I’d be curious as a result of as you realize, since you take care of completely different elements of the nation, a lot of the household legislation courtroom is a cottage trade the place the attorneys know the mediators, know the psychological well being professionals, know the finance, after which they’re simply all working collectively. They know the judges as a result of they went to legislation faculty with them after which they practiced for some time after which they received on the bench, after which they’re not going to piss them off and so they’re not going to essentially argue for his or her shopper as a result of they don’t wish to piss the decide off as a result of they’re going to must see them once more. They’re not going to piss off opposing counsel both as a result of they’re going to must see them once more and discuss to them. So it is a entire cottage trade factor.

So which once more, after I’m teaching guys – and I firmly imagine that each particular person now – I didn’t after I began this, I used to be like “Yeah, teaching can be good for you,” however I believe that each particular person going by divorce ought to have – I completely agree 100% on a regular basis – a coach in order that they will know and that they will perceive this entire course of and what goes on. And that query of what proportion of the enterprise do you need to exit and also you truly must get your self, I believe in particularly within the states the place it’s courtroom ordered, is a improbable query. And full-time – do you do that full-time, do you feed your loved ones doing this? Since you’re dedicated to it if you’re. And in case you do, what proportion of that’s non-public that you simply work with {couples} exterior of the courtroom, what proportion of that’s attorneys that you realize that you simply’ve labored with, and what number is court-ordered? After which the final query is what’s your decision fee based mostly on all that? As a result of then you may – I imply it is a larger equation factor – however you may see if 90% of their circumstances are courtroom ordered and so they have a 25% success fee, then you definitely received it proper there. It’s the Colorado Rockies and the Chicago Cubs for thus a few years – folks saved displaying as much as the video games even when they weren’t profitable simply because they saved displaying up. That was the Cubs endlessly, that’s the Colorado Rockies now, as a result of everyone exhibits up and so they don’t care in the event that they win or not. So it’s that very same philosophy – they hold getting enterprise as a result of it’s simply given to them, they haven’t any incentive to essentially achieve success.

Joe: Precisely, yeah, that’s – I believe these are nice questions that you simply ask, and that leads me into simply re-emphasizing as a result of I do with the blokes the entire time is that you simply’re accountable for this course of. Completely, that’s an excellent level. Get educated, ask the questions, don’t bury your head. In case you weren’t the chief in your loved ones and also you weren’t main, it is likely to be one of many explanation why you’re within the place you’re at. It’s the time now so that you can begin doing that. Ask your mediator, don’t get – discover one other mediator and ask the questions. Discover – in case you don’t get the solutions otherwise you don’t just like the solutions, discover one other one. However be sure to begin taking the reins on this course of.

Joe: And if I can simply – I’ll share this with you, you realize, I’ll reply a query you didn’t ask however you type of did. The share of shoppers we get from the courts or referral is zero. 100% of our enterprise is shopper referral or direct, and we for that very cause – it’s precisely what you mentioned – as a result of we work onerous, we’re selective. We interview our shoppers too as a result of we wish to ensure that they’re as dedicated to this course of as we’re as a result of we’re placing it in day in and time out.

And alongside the strains of what you have been saying, a part of how we do that’s in case you go on our web site – and also you in all probability have that in your present notes right here no matter it’s – now we have a useful resource heart, and since 2007 – I can’t imagine I’m saying that out loud – I’ve been running a blog and I’ve been writing these guides, all the pieces from divorce after 20 years to amicable divorce to how does alimony work and all these items. That’s how folks discover us as a result of we really feel very strongly that you should get educated on this course of.

As a result of I’ll simply – you realize, I do know everyone’s listening so it’s probably not a secret – however an informed shopper is a good shopper for us. They arrive in with practical expectations, they arrive in with a way of how issues work. They don’t must have all of the solutions, however they’ve sufficient data to know kind of what they don’t know, and so they can ask the clever questions.

So our philosophy has all the time been to spend money on folks and educate them, and in the event that they work with us, nice, and in the event that they don’t, that’s nice as a result of we get guests from all around the world and we’re solely training in six states. However allow them to get that data in order that such as you mentioned they will go away, they will really feel empowered, they will really feel educated, after which the concern additionally subsides.

It’s like I bear in mind being a child – I needed to get my knowledge tooth out. I’ve no cavities in my tooth, I don’t know the way that occurred. I’ve no cavities, by no means actually had an issue with a dentist, and the primary actual major interplay I had with a dentist was to get my knowledge tooth out. I used to be freaking out as a result of I’m like “Oh my god,” after which like two hours later I’m consuming SpaghettiOs. I’m like “Properly, I freaked myself out over this.” If I had identified, you realize, identical factor – get educated, cut back the concern, cut back that reactivity, work with a coach like your self, after which get by the method assured. That’s actually key.

Jude: Yeah, good. So we may in all probability discuss for an additional hour however we’re developing on an hour. So the place is the web site the place the listeners can discover that weblog and that data?

Joe: Yeah certain, you simply go to EquitableMediation.com and then you definitely’ll simply see proper there there’s a useful resource heart that has blogs, it has video programs, now we have a free course on mediation, now we have free ebooks, weblog posts, all this sort of stuff. There’s even some programs that you would be able to buy. We now have – I put collectively an entire negotiation course on tips on how to negotiate a divorce, not fill out the courtroom kinds and all of that stuff, however tips on how to truly get into the room and negotiate together with your soon-to-be ex. What are all of the issues that I as a mediator do, whether or not shoppers realize it or not, you can also study to do this. It’s not onerous, you simply must have sure tips of the commerce in your again pocket if you’ll.

However numerous that stuff is on the market, numerous it’s free. Simply be at liberty, go there, use the sources which might be on the market, get educated on it. And simply inform your listeners completely like don’t be afraid – now we have individuals who typically come to our first assembly and so they’ve printed out our weblog posts. I used to be like “That’s such a excessive praise.” It’s like any person took the time to print out one thing you wrote and hold it. I used to be like “Properly these days that’s so digital and scrolly and all that,” you’re like “Oh cool, thanks.”

Jude: Yeah, after which on the web site can they attain you and come up with you thru the web site?

Joe: Yeah they will, so that you’ll see there’s a button that claims “Speak to Us” and we follow in Washington State, California, Illinois, New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey – these are the six states we follow in. So in case you stay in considered one of our six states, there’s just a little button up prime that claims “Speak to Us.” You click on that, you schedule a free name with my accomplice Cheryl. She’ll let you know about how the method works, issues like that, see in case you’re a superb match, if mediation’s a risk. Then after that you would be able to schedule an preliminary assembly with me and your partner, in order that’s the three of us.

So now we have a possibility so that you can attain out, schedule a name with Cheryl, no obligation. We simply wish to say “Hey, does mediation be just right for you? Can we work with you? Are you a superb match? Are we a superb match?” Offer you just a little training, just a little background, and once more it’s actually nearly getting data.

As a result of I’ll go away you with this – after I suppose again to all of the shoppers I’ve had, I can in all probability depend on two arms, perhaps I’ll say one fraction of 1% of the shoppers who’ve come to us who’ve been beforehand divorced. The general public we work with – actually the 99.9% of the shoppers we work with – that is the primary time they’re going by this. And such as you mentioned, I believed that was good – you don’t know what you don’t know. So realize it, study it, it’s on the market, you may study it. Get educated, it makes all of the distinction.

Jude: Yeah, superior. Final query – when are you coming to Colorado and the opposite 44 states as a result of we positively want a greater sort of mediation such as you present?

Joe: I respect it. You recognize, give it some thought as a result of we like to enter a state the place we perceive the way it works, we’re snug mediating, we construct an expert community earlier than we even consider mediating someplace. We would like mortgage professionals and evaluation attorneys and submitting professionals and folk in our again pocket. However we’ll definitely hold Colorado in thoughts, and yeah, I’m actually sorry you had that have, man. I let you know Jude, that simply breaks my coronary heart, however sadly it’s a narrative that I hear loads as a result of we get fairly a number of shoppers who’ve come to us from different mediators and so they’re like “What do you – what are we doing right here?” And I’m like “Properly, that is the way it works.” Properly I ought to say that is the way it ought to work, and that lends us to that case decision fee as a result of when you have that course of, you have got all of it out on the desk, it’s actually onerous to argue with the details.

Jude: Yeah, no, that’s superior, and it’s a superb factor as a result of then it offers me the chance now to share a proper manner with everyone and to have the ability to level out the distinction sooner or later going ahead with the dads that I are available contact with that there’s a higher manner to do that. That is how, that is who you may discuss to, and these are the questions. Like I discovered a lot right now, it was phenomenal. I really really respect it. You recognize, I’ve been within the household legislation system for 13 years and that is enlightening and eye opening for me right now, and I hope it was for everyone else that listened.

Joe, I actually respect what you’re doing, actually respect the professionalism and the knowledge and the conscientiousness that you simply carry to doing what you do. It’s apparent when speaking to you and listening to you communicate, so having professionals such as you within the system offers me hope and helps me to inform guys “Yeah, mediation is an effective factor. Discover any person like Joe and Equitable and it may be a superb factor.”

Joe: That’s nice. Properly thanks for being right here, I sincerely respect it.

Jude: My pleasure, thanks.

Jude: To listen to the remainder of this episode and entry the corresponding sources, go to TheDivorcedAdvocate.com and change into a member of our neighborhood. It’s free to affix and can offer you the sources you deserve as a divorced or divorcing dad. Thanks for listening, God bless, and I’ll discuss with you subsequent week.